Episode 3 - Juggling it all

Michele Pankratz

Michèle is the manager of organization development at the City, a team that facilitates individual, team and organizational effectiveness through conscious leadership and leadership competency development. She has worked within Human Resources at the City for the past 14 years.

Michele is passionate about how we evolve and thrive as humans, particularly through adversity, and how we develop as leaders in all the integrated areas of our lives. As a working mom to a son and step-daughter, Michèle unexpectedly became medical caregiver for her son 10 years ago, when he was diagnosed at age nine with Type 1 Diabetes, a life-threatening autoimmune disease and ‘invisible disability’ that requires 24/7 management and for which there’s currently no cure. The diagnosis upended every aspect of Michèle’s life in an instant as she juggled serving as both primary caregiver and primary income-earner in her family. It disrupted her ability to work full-time and impacted her finances, relationships, and health.

Today, Michèle also provides support to her elderly mother-in-law and father-in-law. The journey has had many silver linings, including increased closeness with her son, the opportunity to meet and work with inspiring families and healthcare professionals, and her own growth and development.

Michele was the 2020 recipient of Diabetes Canada’s National Volunteer of the Year Award and has also served as a volunteer for the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation (JDRF) and BC Children’s Hospital’s diabetes clinic parent advisory group. She is co-facilitator of the City’s Caregiver Employee Resource Group (ERG) and keeps her batteries charged through time in the forest and on mountains, poetry, dabbling in creative arts, and cherished family and friends. 

Sarah Iacoe

Sarah Iacoe is the director and strategic operations and board relations at the Board of Parks and Recreation with over 15 years of experience in project and program management strategy and delivery. Her portfolio focuses on board relations and administration, service planning, business continuity, business process improvement, change management, and stakeholder engagement across a broad stakeholder group with diverse interests.

Joining the City of Vancouver in 2014, her most recent work includes leading the annual service planning process for the Park Board as well as the COVID -19 pandemic reopening and recovery project. Previous work includes the development of a joint operating level agreement with key partners within the City of Vancouver and leading transformational initiatives developing and implementing a project management framework that standardizes project management requirements, procedures, and tools as well as developing and implementing standardized quality management procedures and templates.

Prior to her work at the City, Sarah spent eight years in the private sector managing multi-million dollar engineering, procurement, and construction management projects and programs supporting public works and government service and BC Hydro’s commercial real estate portfolio for a large engineering company.

Sarah holds a Bachelor of Science, a Master’s in Business Administration, and is a certified project management professional (PMP) and program management professional (PgMP).

Sarah currently resides in Kitsilano with her husband and young sons and loves to pursue health and wellness through yoga, strength training, biking, hiking, cooking healing foods, acupuncture, massage, meditation, and of course exploring all the beautiful beaches and parks Vancouver has to offer with her family.

Sarah Iacoe: You're so chatty today... Tell me all about it.. [baby sounds] Let's hear. What do you have to say? [baby squeal] You just peed on me! [laughter] Of course.

Carla Grimann  I'm Carla Grimann and this is Talk it Forward brought to you by the Vancouver Board of Parks and Recreation with support from the City of Vancouver. On today's show, we're going to be talking about caregiving and its impact on our careers. Caregiving is a very human experience. And we will all be cared for or care for someone else in our lives. It can come with lots of complications. So how do we balance caregiving with a career and with trying to achieve leadership? Later on in the show, we'll be talking to Michelle Pankratz who works in Organizational Development for the City. She is also a caregiver, and has a lot to say about how we can better support mothers and caregivers while at work.  But first, I'll talk with Sarah Iacoe about the current pressures of motherhood. Sarah is a new mom. And Sarah, before we get into all the questions, I just want to bring up a memory that I have of when we were working on a project together. And I don't know if you remember this or not. But we were working on a project and we had to do a presentation to the Park Board. And there were some finishing touches that needed to be done on this presentation. And you knew what the final touches were, but I did not. And you said give me a call and I'll walk you through it. So I called you and you were talking about okay, on, you know, slide 15 -- we need to change this. And then slide 16 -- can you put a graphic in here and then all of a sudden you start saying, oh, just hang on a sec. Hang on a second. It's okay. And I'm like, what's going on in the background there? And then I hear this... It's okay, mommy is just talking to a friend at work. Her name is Carla. Yeah, her name is Carla. Yeah, I'll push you on the swings. And I just remember the time thinking, Yeah, I've, I've called Sarah on her day off of work. She's booked a day off of work. And she's working while she is spending time with her family from the playground from the playground.

Sarah Iacoe: Yes. So I don't remember that specifically, but it happens a lot. Right? We're always on the go. Yeah.

Carla Grimann: So you're working a pretty demanding job. But I actually have to also point out that that was many, many years ago. And another memory I have was just a couple of weeks after that phone call. We met in person and I asked you a little bit more about your child. And we started talking about you know, oh is this your only one, how many kids do you have? You know, and and I said, Oh, are you going to have another one? And something that really really hit home for me was you said hmm, I would love to, but I don't know. Like I'm also working on my career. And if I move up, you know, that's very demanding of my time. And you know, it's already hard juggling one but yeah, I would really love to be able to have another baby. But I don't know if I can move up into leadership for that. So congratulations, you are on your second maternity leave. And as I also understand you've had a promotion correct? 

Sarah Iacoe: Yeah, last year. So I'm now the Director of Strategic Operations and Board Relations for the Park Board. 

Carla Grimann: Congratulations. 

Sarah Iacoe: And I've got a sleeping baby beside us here, a little three month baby, Luca, so he may have a cameo, but we'll see if we get lucky.

Carla Grimann: We'd be honoured to have baby Luca on our podcast. So can you tell me what it's like when you got pregnant with baby Luca? Did you tell anyone about your pregnancy or did you hide it for the first while or how how was that conversation?

Sarah Iacoe: Yeah, it's such an interesting topic. Well, you know, for me, personally, there are circumstances around my second pregnancy that made it a lot more challenging for me. So I personally underwent secondary infertility. So I tried for many, many years to become pregnant with my second baby, and needed to get assistance through IVF to to conceive Luca. So for me, I was undergoing that for three and a half years really behind the scenes before I became pregnant. And so no, to answer your question, I did not share that at work. And I think that that's a pretty common experience across the board with a lot of the IVF mamas that I talked to, who have busy careers as well and IVF is, is on the rise, one in six heterosexual couples are going to face infertility and may need to undergo IVF. And I think as women are having children later in life, that number is only going to continue to rise. And this is such a complicated time in a woman's life. You know, it's all consuming -- physical, emotional, spiritual, financial. And, you know, a woman who's undergoing IVF is experiencing invasive medical procedures, surgeries, testing side effects from medication, you know, having to deal with unsuccessful treatments, pregnancy loss may be pregnancy complications, or may need to explore alternative options for having her family. So this is a really, really complicated time for women in particular. And largely, they're suffering in silence because of the fear of discrimination. You know, it's... women are still facing that sexism and microaggressions. In the workplace, all that unconscious bias and stereotypes that women face when they are announcing pregnancies becoming pregnant, because people are perceiving them to be on the mommy track. Right, and that they're less they're perceived to be less committed or capable at their jobs. And , and so I think therefore, women, you know, don't feel safe. 

Carla Grimann:  Sadly, sometimes we have to, to hide it.

Sarah Iacoe: Yeah. They don't feel safe talking about it. And so I think for the majority of my experience, I kept quiet. And it really wasn't until, you know, I felt safe in relationship to my current wonderful boss, to share that at a really critical time for myself. And so, you know, that made all the difference.

Carla Grimann: What was it that made you feel safe? Did your current boss do anything different? You said it was about relationship building. That made you feel safe?

Sarah Iacoe: Well, I mean, we at the Park Board are blessed with a leader who is she's just a freedom fighter all around. She's very committed to, to equity across the board. And she is willing to step up and make hard decisions and fight for her employees. And I think she's got a mission to really change the culture of the Park Board. And so it was her persona, right? And the way that she showed up for her leaders, the way that she just exists in the world is very authentic. And I thought if I can't risk it with this person, then there's it's not safe with anyone. And so I did it. And I was so thankful that I did. She just was beautiful in that experience for me, and it made all the difference really. To a safe and healthy pregnancy, really, yeah.

Carla Grimann: Good. I'm so glad to hear that. And I think there's probably a lot of other women who have heard this and sort of breathe a sigh of relief that that has happened for you. And thank you also for sharing with us your journey of trying to get pregnant, because I know that that can be a very difficult thing. It's a very emotional thing. And as you said, though, I think more and more women as they are having babies later on in life are going to be using that fertility treatment to get pregnant. So when you got pregnant the first time…may I ask what is your baby's your first child's name? 

Sarah Iacoe: Teddy. Theodore.

Carla Grimann: Teddy. So when you were pregnant with Teddy, did you disclose or tell anyone you're pregnant then too? And how is it different?

Sarah Iacoe: No, I didn't either, until it was time. Until I was sort of like starting to physically show and I remember going to my manager and saying, I have something to tell you. And him saying, oh my god, you're not quitting. I said, no, I'm not quitting, I'm pregnant. I'm four, I'm like four and a half months pregnant by this point, and he was just floored. Daddy of four, super supportive of me as well. And so it was a beautiful thing. Of course, I showed up with my spreadsheet of this isn't going to impact work and this is the status of my projects. And this is my plan for, you know, transitioning to mat leave, and he just said, put that away, and, you know, gave me a big hug. And, you know, wanted to just to hear about how I was, and I thought that was very kind and sweet, too. But the reality is, no, I didn't share prior to that point. And, you know, there's a lot of reasons why women wouldn't do that. But, you know, you and I have sort of discussed behind the scenes, you know, imagine a world where a woman could come to work and say, you know, I want that promotion, and or, you know, I'd like to aspire to this level in the organization. And by the way, I also aspire to have three children in my life, and how do we make this work in a transparent and fair and productive way for both parties? Right, like, we're a long way from reproductive transparency. Yeah. And, and so I think there's a lot there. You know, I think there's a lot there for us to all explore and to improve upon.

Carla Grimann: I agree. And I think that if we could have those conversations and be able to have relationships, you know, with our employers that are as strong as that, I think that's in my mind, a win win for both parties. A whole lot less stressful, I think.  So but just for the record, you are coming back to work, right?  I know that you you're kind of you know, you're not even halfway through your maternity leave. But what do you think it's gonna be like as you transition back into work after maternity leave?

Sarah Iacoe: Oh, my goodness, that's the million dollar question. I mean, the first time around, I have to say, I was shocked at how difficult it was. I mean, I was prepared for difficult, but the difficulty far exceeded what I, what I was ready for, you know. I think that moms are still facing that motherhood penalty, right, that perceived competence and commitment issue. And sometimes they're making trade offs for managing the extra burdens that they're dealing with at home in terms of unpaid work, childcare, cleaning, cooking, logistics, sick days, doctor's appointments, social engagements, volunteering with their kids, you know, on and on, it goes. And this is disproportionately affecting women. You know, significantly. In fact, it's been shown that men actually earn more when they become fathers, they don't have this motherhood penalty. So when I returned to work the first time, it was sort of fraught by, by so many complications, really, and I don't think that it was until I became a mom that I felt like I was falling behind in my career, you know. And I'll say that as a very privileged, you know, woman, white, cis, able bodied, credentialed, married, employed women in Vancouver. Very privileged on the spectrum. But I and you know, I've certainly faced my fair share of sexism in the workplace coming up, but it really wasn't until I became a mom that I started to really lose ground, because I needed to make those trade offs. You know, I had shared with you that childcare, we  know childcare is an issue in Vancouver, and I thought, nope, 

Carla Grimann: Have you got childcare? Ready for...? 

Sarah Iacoe: No, I do not know. And I'll tell you the story. The first time around, I had heard the horror stories of the childcare issue. So the first people that knew I was pregnant, were the childcare waitlists.  Even before I told my husband, I had a spreadsheet I had plotted on the map, all of the centers in my radius between home and work, and I had applied to all of them diligently, you know, the over a dozen childcare locations, and I will tell you that in 15 months, I only heard back from one. And to this day, they say we don't know how you got on with us. You know, we had a three year waitlist, it was a fluke. I diligently followed up with those childcare centers on a quarterly basis. Nobody called me back, you know, I was desperate, I had to extend my mat leave by a little bit. I was looking at getting a nanny, but of course, a nanny is costly. So, so costly, you know, if you're, if you're planning to pay a nanny, a living wage in Vancouver, it's, it's a very significant cost I just personally cannot afford. Yeah, so I was lucky the first time that I did find childcare. And this time around, I am in the same boat. I honestly don't know what will happen.

Carla Grimann: Yeah. So you're, you're just waiting for the phone call and hoping.. 

Sarah Iacoe: I'm just waiting. Yeah, I'm in the I'm in the wind. And so that's like, a huge reason why, I think, you know, returning to work for moms is stressful, and fraught with uncertainty. You know, inability to plan and to and to, to get those logistics sorted out is a big part of it. But then again, you know, juggling everything, once you do find childcare, and returning to work, it's exhausting, draining, exhausting, That's a 247 job, you know, you have a child, that's another full time job, in addition to your paid work job, and you didn't get any more time in your day. And motherhood is 247, you know, your children need you during the night. If you're nursing, it's, I've heard estimates that nursing a baby is 1800 hours a year. So that's close to a full time job in itself and paid on paid just the feeding component of it. So I think that that mounting, unpaid labor that women do at home, it wasn't for me, a conscious decision, almost, it just sort of I just seem to accumulate, accumulate jobs.

Carla Grimann: Somehow, we manage to do it.

Sarah Iacoe: Right, I accumulate the laundry, I accumulate the cooking, I accumulate the pickups, I accumulate all of the emotional care for my children. And I think it's not uncommon, right. And so for me, I needed to make accommodation, I took a reduced work week when I came back the first time around. And that had consequences for me in my career, it really did, people did perceive me in a different way, because I was doing a different job. And although I was grateful for that accommodation, I think we're looking back, I can see how it really set me back a bit in terms of my career progression.

Carla Grimann: And do you think, though, like that was it people's perceptions, that kind of set you back? Or? I don't know, because I see you as really like an, certainly when I have worked with you on projects, you know, you are very ambitious, you are determined, I think that any employer would be thankful to have you on their team, like you're just an incredibly productive person.

Sarah Iacoe: I'll get a reference for you.

Carla Grimann: Not a problem.

Sarah Iacoe: You know, I think it's complicated, because although I needed and wanted that accommodation, and I was so, so grateful at the time to have it. I also can see in retrospect that I took a different role. And that role was as an individual contributor, and it was a blessing and a curse. A blessing in the sense that traditional leadership roles like the one I'm in now, even, you know, we've got big teams, you need to be available, basically 247. There's evening work, board work, project work, which is just, you know, deadline driven, and it can be high stress. And so, when I took the individual contributor role, it didn't have a lot of those issues, right. I could come in, I could provide my expertise and work and then leave. And I loved that about it for a time. But it also meant that people who didn't know me before, perceived me as that was my skill level. And so in particular, people in leadership, didn't know that I came with 15 years of experience doing all those other things prior, right. And that this for me was sort of a temporary timeout. So it took, I think, a lot of relationship building for me and time and, and me to sort of get back in the saddle, so to speak, with my hours of work and what not to be really quite clear about my commitment for growth, to recover on that. And I think that for a lot of women, that's just, you know, not going to be... Like I had the benefit of exposure, let's say, right, and of my personal relationships. So I think for a lot of women who are making those trade offs, whether it's financial, or whether it's for childcare, you know, they're, they're really going to be facing that penalty. And if they don't have the mentorship and the guidance and people advocating for them, quite easily could fall even further behind in their careers. For me, it's very important to have a female role model. And I think that also, you know, for someone to be interested in challenging the status quo, that's what I am most attracted to. And strong female leaders is that, you know, this industry, this function, this workforce that we've kind of inherited was not built by women, for women. And it certainly doesn't accommodate to working parents in particular working mothers yet at all. And so I'm, I'm motivated, and people who are interested in helping change that. It would be so wonderful if more employers could provide on site childcare. And if that's not possible, then help their employees guarantee priority childcare at locations where the care is of good quality. This would be an absolute game changer to say, you know, we can guarantee you a spot at this facility. And to know, you know, it's going to be available when you need it, and you want to return back to work. I think the other thing is a really well defined reintegration plan for moms. Like right now we're relying on you know, Canada's well legislated maternity leave benefit, okay, so it's really not enough. I don't think in today's competitive marketplace to rely on the fact that okay, women get this mat leave and here are your benefits. And there you go and see you in a year. We really need to start to address three phases of maternity, which is like before, during and after, for women. And after being the most crucial, because we know that women leave the workforce, on average 18 months after coming back to work, because of all those trade offs they're having to make and becoming more and more disillusioned along the way. So I think a program to help women with that on an off ramp would be really important. And the number one thing you probably need is flexible work. Whether that's remote work or, you know, a reduced hours on a temporary basis, whether it's sort of like a gradual return to work or a compressed work week to manage all of your obligations. You know, traditionally leaders manage big teams, and they're available 24 7 and nights and evenings are just part of it. But if we did create some more senior level individual contributor roles, then I think that women would not have to take so many trade offs and be penalized for kind of not conforming to that traditional track. So we'll see, you know, I'll be presenting and preparing material for board meetings every Monday, probably when I go back to work, and I'll likely be nursing a baby. And, you know, I'll be I'll be probably forging that, that track for many people at the park board to say, is this sustainable for a mother with young babies? And if not, then how can we make it so.

Carla Grimann: I wouldn't 100% support you in this forging ahead. Thank you so much. Sarah. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about? Or any other burning sort of issues on your mind about motherhood?

Sarah Iacoe: Wow. I mean, I think that there are a couple things that we could improve for moms everywhere, right. You know, we talked about childcare, we talked about having, you know, a supportive on and off ramp, we talked about having more welcoming and flexible workplace policies. I think that ultimately, we have to get down to the fact that there's a wage gap and that women are not making the same amount, or earning the same amount as men, and that there's still a penalty of very high cost for women to have a career. And at a certain point, I think we're going to have to really pay women for their maternity leaves. We work at the City, we have a very generous benefit package. When you compare that to a lot of other companies. For example, we have the wellness days, which I just I love the wellness days, right? Those are days with my kids, I just love those. And the City will top up maternity to four months to a portion of your salary. That I think when with women, especially in inner cities like Vancouver, where we have a crippling mortgages and where childcare is sort of hit and miss. And then we have women who are having babies later in their life, right, who may have to deal with fertility treatments, and then all of the added costs and pressures of having a baby. You know, they've right sized their lives to their salaries, and yet they have to go on maternity leave. And they have to earn a very small proportion of what they were earning before, right, through EI, which they pay into their entire lives, by the way. And then potentially, if they're very, very lucky, we'll have a maternity top up. And the other thing is, you know, for example, at the City, we have a defined pension program, which if you take a maternity leave, you take a gap year from that pension. If you do the math on the gap, let's say on one to three children, that's a massive cut to your pension. So women are being penalized not only immediately by taking the mat  leave, but in their future for their retirement. And currently, there's a time period that you have to pay that money back in order to get the employer contribution. And I think it's, it's only a few years, but the reality is, if you live in Vancouver, you have a huge mortgage, you're having to save for your mat leave as it is, you don't all of a sudden have $10, $20, $30,000 laying around to re contribute to your pension. So I think that that's something that employers need to look at. And then lastly, I would say that everybody, I think at work has a responsibility to address sort of like the culture of burnout, because a lot of this is, is disproportionately affecting women. But I think we need to be super clear and realistic and achievable. And what we're taking on, right, we can't be all things to all people. We need supportive workplace policies that help employees, not just women, but everybody establish boundaries to safeguard their mental health. And I think we really need to engage women in particularly moms in the development of these programs and policies. You know, I'd like to see us model the way. It's very uncommon for me to see women, especially moms with young kids in leadership roles, right? Even if we are seeing women, like they're disproportionately white, and they're a lot older. And I think that if we start to include more BIPOC staff, women with young children in leadership roles, really, we're gonna see like, what's the litmus test of these? Are they sustainable? Are they inclusive? Are they productive for everybody involved? So those are the things that I that I would like to see. And I mean, we didn't really touch on the men.

Carla Grimann: But they are part of the equation.

Sarah Iacoe: Maybe another podcast. But this podcast is about mothers, right? So I think that right now we need to support the women because they are having the babies and they are doing this work. And I think that we need to offer our policies of flexibility and workplace inclusiveness to all employees and get men on board. Because the culture of flexibility can be perceived as a penalty to women. So if more men partook in that, and parental leave, flexible work, taking on more of the burden of childcare and, and other responsibilities than I think that's a win for women. But, but I do, I do think women need to be the focus of these supportive programs.

Carla Grimann: I agree. And thank you for, you know, I asked if you had anything else or more to say, and you brought up like a whole bunch of other points. All super important. Thank you so much. And hopefully we can get started on some of these initiatives.

Sarah Iacoe: Let's get started. I'm on board.

Carla Grimann: Thank you so much, Sarah, again, for being on our show today. And thank you, baby Luca for making a cameo appearance.

Sarah Iacoe: Thank you so much for having us. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for doing this podcast, Carla.

Carla Grimann: You're listening to Talk it Forward, brought to you by the Vancouver Board of Parks and Recreation and supported by the City of Vancouver. I'm Carla Grimann. And today on the show, we're talking about caregiving and self care, and what it's like to juggle parenthood or taking care of a loved one with a disability while juggling work and all those other pressures.  Next, we'll talk about strategies to better support caregivers. Before we introduce our guest today, I just wanted to give a kudos and a huge thank you to all of the working women out there. Those that are working inside and outside of the workplace. You know, I read somewhere that stats are they work an additional five hours per day outside of the workforce and the work that they do outside of the workforce it's vital to our communities and our society. And this work often goes unrecognized. And this work looks like cooking, cleaning, volunteering for the PAC and also caretaking or caregiving, which leads me to introduce our next guest, Michelle Pankratz from organizational development at the City of Vancouver. And she's here to chat with us about caregiving and how it may impact our career development. So thank you so much, Michelle, for joining us today. And can you tell us just a little bit about what does organizational development do here at the City of Vancouver?

Michele Pankratz: Thank you very much, Carla. I'm really thrilled to be here. And sure, it's a bit of a funny term organization development, but primarily, what we're responsible for as a team is individual leadership and team leadership and organizational culture shift kinds of initiatives. So very much work with leaders across the organization at all levels of the organization.

Carla Grimann: Thanks for that. So you're talking about leadership and the development of leadership? Often, you know, the these additional hours and specifically caregiving or caretaking, it can be a bit of a barrier to career development and leadership. I was just wondering, has this personally impacted you at all in your career development?

Michele Pankratz: Yes, absolutely. So I am a first of all, at the city in terms of how we've defined caregiver, for example, in our employee benchmark surveys is a parent or someone who cares for, provides elder care and or care for someone who lives with a chronic illness and or disability of some sort. So, for me, I am a mom. And so there's that aspect of caregiving. I have a son, and also a daughter, a stepdaughter. But 10 years ago, my son was diagnosed with what is called a life threatening chronic autoimmune disease. And so I became a medical caregiver, as well as a parent. So that was a life altering experience. For me, it's changed every aspect of my life and continues to be a big part of my life, although my son's a young adult now and primarily independent, but there's still aspects of caregiving that I provide for him. So..

Carla Grimann: I think you never stop being a mom, no matter how old your child is.

Michele Pankratz: That is the case. You're absolutely right. It just shifts in terms of what you worry about. So from a from a caregiving perspective on those different levels? Yes, it's very much been part of my journey and my career experience as well as shaped that.

Carla Grimann: And so as far as impacting your career development, you know, it sounds exhausting, very time consuming, and it can drain you from focusing on your daily job or your career development. I'm wondering, how did you navigate around that? And did it impact you that much?

Michele Pankratz: Yes, actually, it was. So when my son was diagnosed, I was actually a TFT employee at the city. And so initially, I actually had to leave my role because it was, it's quite a steep learning curve for the health condition he has. It's intense management and requires 24/7 management and he was young. So I needed to go to his field trips, and I needed to be there for all of his sports on the sidelines and things like that. So for the first year, I actually couldn't work. So it had quite a significant impact. And then I was able to start fitting work back into my life, because I'm also the primary income earner in my family. So it's important that I am working. So there was some financial impact from that as well, as well as career impact, which happens for many women and caregivers in general. But interestingly, at the city, currently, there are not part time options. So I had to find a different way to engage. And that was primarily through contracts. And then five years ago, I had the opportunity to come back in a full time role. And my son was at a different level. But two and a half years into that he was in the teen stage, which comes with its own challenges for the disease that he has. 

Carla Grimann: I am there right now. I am there right now I sympathize with you and any other mother, father of a teenager.

Michele Pankratz:  Yes, it's a very unique stage in children's lives. And then also with my son, we which he has type one diabetes. And so it's a quite a fraught time of physical and mental health. So I attempted to stay very engaged in work as a manager. And you notice that the in the organization, it's very fulfilling role, but it's also very demanding. And so I thought I could do it all and do both and those extra hours you're talking about and all the medical care requirements I had, and I ended up burning out and I had to leave the organization again. And so for about a year and a half to so just to regain my own health, recalibrate, make sure my son was in a good place. And then I had the very good fortune of being able to come back in my role when my predecessor actually had to leave for caregiving reasons, actually, as well. So I've had quite a quite a journey with my caregiving experience in terms of how it impacts my whole life and my career and work so.

Carla Grimann: Well, welcome back. Obviously, very thankful to have you back. And, and so you know, you've had to leave a few times, to care for yourself. And now that you have re entered the workplace, and full time, I'm wondering, you know, when you did leave, did you learn anything about self care? And how are you going to manage this full time job now? You're still caregiving, your caregiving for an loved elder person in your life. What do you think you will do different this time to care for yourself? Or what is there anything else that you would recommend to say, our listeners that are going through a similar situation, because I think that putting yourself first, and caring for yourself first and foremost, before you take care of others is really important.

Michele Pankratz: It is absolutely the case. And it's interesting, you know, when, when my son was first diagnosed, I was in a session where someone was there who wasn't a caregiver, but that was okay, but who provided some, you know, guidance and suggestions and ideas, like, make sure you sit by the window and read a book and have a cup of tea or go to a yoga class. And in my situation, and I know, for many parents, particularly with young children, that's actually not really an option. So but and that becomes more of an option as you carve out time, and you find your ways. But what I found actually was, interestingly, some of the self care things were self compassion. So being kinder with myself in terms of my expectations, being vulnerable, and sharing with others, so that they would be aware because caregiving is quite invisible, for the most part in the workplace. And so actually sharing and being vulnerable about what it was that I was managing, yeah, and I do that still today. I think, breathing, you know, but intentionally breathing in the day, you know, finding those things that I can insert right into my day to day. Movement is is extremely important, I think, for all of us, and offer me it's really important. So making sure I just get up and move around, I make that non negotiable. And relationships, I think too, so having those around you that either speak the same language, or that you can share with so that shores you up. So those are some of the things for me that I learned even just in how I think differently. And what I expected of myself, provided the self care, and then enabled me to still be highly productive and contributing to so so that's a shift for me.

Carla Grimann: And I'm just wondering, in terms of caregiving and supporting women, what do you think men can do to better support women in providing caregiving while navigating work environments?

Michele Pankratz: You know, it's, it's interesting, because I mean, increasingly, actually, men are caregivers as well. But in all the research that I've done that I'm aware of women are more impacted by caregiving. But I was listening to an interesting discussion the other day about flexibility in the workplace actually is probably one of the biggest things we can do to support everyone. It's a healthier way of working for everyone increasingly, as we go forward. And we  have certainly seen that in the pandemic. And when we do that, that also provides options and opportunities for men to take on more caregiving as well. And so it's an interesting thing where still caregiving predominantly falls on women, as you mentioned, the hours that are involved. So even if men identify as caregivers in the organization, women still tend to take on more of the different kinds of roles that impact their lives and work. So I think men being aware of that. Men finding ways to flex their own work lives and be in conversation about this issue. To understand it more deeply in terms of the impacts, I think, fully just engaging in the conversation to understand how we can do this collectively because care, you know, it's interesting. I was just reading a stat that at least 60% of us at some point in our lives, are going to have some responsibility in terms of caregiving, be it children or elder care or caring for a family member, friend. That's a pretty universal experience. So it's actually woven into our society. It's a core thread of who we are as humans, but it's invisible primarily in places like the workplace. And so I think bringing this forward, and that was part of the reason for the ERG too, 45%, I think of, of city employees who responded to the employee benchmark survey are caregivers, are identified as caregivers, 66% of them are actually, those who are pay band 10 and above, considered senior leaders. So it's really interesting in terms of it's it's quite a high percentage of our employees, at least those who responded to the employee benchmark survey who identify as caregivers, but you likely don't know that in terms of the impacts in day to day interactions.

Carla Grimann: I know and I think, when you talk about it being invisible, you know, I think a lot of people want to keep their personal lives outside of the work environment. But I think that if we know about the struggles that our employees are going through, then we can better support them and bring understanding as to you know, why they're off today. Or, you know, they're just not 100% there, and help them in some way with whatever that they are going through. Like you said, this is just the beginning of the journey, the beginning of the conversations. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your experience with us of what you have gone through and just curious, for our listeners, what is your favorite thing to do in regards to self care? What is your number one thing that you turn to to do?

Michele Pankratz: I live close to Pacific Spirit Park in Vancouver up near UBC, the university, and that has saved my life being in that forest, walking or running there is just being surrounded by nature and the quiet. I would say that's my number one go to space and activity to be present.

Carla Grimann: Nice, putting on your running shoes and running.

Michele Pankratz: Yes, just running off. Who knows what direction. Can I add one more thing too Carla that I just wanted to say because I heard this beautiful ... Dr. Terry Allred, who is the Medical Director for First Nations Health Authority and I heard her give a beautiful analogy. And what she said is if you consider all of us as humans, in a circle, you know, a community and a circle. And if we take care of those in the margins, so if we make sure that whatever we design takes care of those who are in the margins, those equity denied groups, those of us who have these different intersectional needs that will take care of everyone. And I thought that was a beautiful thing is that there is a way for it to be an end for all of us if we start having these conversations with those who are challenged most by living in the systems and structures that we're in, and so that's a great goal.

Carla Grimann: Thank you very much for sharing that. And thank you again for joining us on today's episode. Take care.

Michele Pankratz: Thank you very much. It's fantastic that you're creating a space for putting voice to and having these conversations about women in leadership. So I appreciate it.

Carla Grimann: This has been Talk it Forward. I'm Carla Grimann. I'd like to thank both Sarah and Michele for joining me today and talking about caregiving, and for being so open and honest and letting us see into their personal lives. Please follow Talk it Forward to receive episodes as they come out. And why not share the podcast and tell your friends about us. You can learn more about the City of Vancouver's women equity strategy online at vancouver.ca/womensequity. Take care and talk soon.